The more devout Jews allow the mohul to suck the little guy's bleeding member transferring natural maternal care/solace to a male religious authority figure.
WIKI : The traditional method of performing metzitzah b'peh (Hebrew: מְצִיצָה בְּפֶה, abbreviated as MBP[68])—or oral suction—has become controversial. The process has the mohel place his mouth directly on the infant's genital wound to draw blood away from the cut. Many circumcision ceremonies no longer use metzitzah b'peh, but Haredi Jews continue to perform it, while traditional Karaites and Beta Israel never practiced it. The practice poses a serious risk of spreading herpes to the infant. Proponents maintain that there is no conclusive evidence that links herpes to Metzitza, and that attempts to limit this practice infringe on religious freedom
You may find the concept of "basic trust" interesting, if you haven't come across it. It just a term the psychological community has coined to describe an underlying feeling of safety one has regarding their existence in the world.
Good point. My summary: Basic trust is the fundamental sense of security and confidence that an individual develops during the first year of his life. It is the bedrock of his future psychological development, as psychologist Erik Erikson theorized it, and it depends primarily on the sense of being protected and cared for by the parents. Failure to develop this basic trust can lead to chronic anxiety, depression, and personality disorders. (Do we really need Erikson to tell us that?) Children enduring the excruciating pain of circumcision (without anesthesia) will surely react differently, but can there be any doubt that many will have their basic trust permanently damaged?
Two entertaining Bible stories about circumcision:
1Samuel 18: David wanted to marry Saul’s daughter. Saul asked, as bride token, one hundred Philistines' foreskins. David went out and slaughtered two hundred Philistines and brought back their foreskins to Saul. The story does not say if Saul fried them like onion rings or wore them as a necklace.
Genesis 34: Hamor, the king of the Canaanite city of Shechem, once proposed to Jacob to intermarry with his tribe: “give us your daughters and take our daughters for yourselves.” Jacob’s sons feigned to agree on the condition that “you become like us by circumcising all your males.” Hamor consented and convinced all his male subjects to be circumcised. Three days later, “when the men were still in pain,” Jacob’s sons attacked the town, “slaughtered all the males,” and “took all their children and wives captive and looted everything to be found in the houses”.
i have always thought this. it must cause subconscious rage at the mother, at the very least, at women, at society. Attachment cannot work correctly after that. It just can't.
Im curious as to whether or not this creates a kind of permanent depression on a man that cannot be healed. I wonder how prevalent circumcised gentiles are in christian churches. I think in America circumcision stopped being widespread maybe a few decades ago and that could be a factor in the reduced attendance of these churches?
What Im getting at is that if this is such a trauma that it persists into adulthood, it would not be surprising to find circumcised men unable to find fulfillment in life seeking religious answers to a question that cannot be answered. Leading to the language that Bono uses “I still haven’t found what Im looking for”. Its a trauma that exists deep within the subconscious that manifests as this “god shaped hole”. Of course that wouldn’t explain women seeking religious institutions.
Im wondering what kind of impact that makes on a societal whole, that all these men have this deep subconscious trauma which happened before they even developed language with which to process it. That’s why nothing cures the pain of someone like that I imagine. Who knows I could be reaching.
I think psychopaths try to increase chaos and suffering for this reason. Well adjusted people will not be manipulated as easily, so they try to maximize as much suffering as they can to perpetuate their power. A bunch of women hating circumcised dudes traumatize the women, they then traumatize young men, you know its this cancer that keeps on giving.
That is probably why forgiveness becomes such a powerful mechanism for the possibility of healing. At a certain point if you seek revenge on enough people you just traumatize more people and the only fix is to wipe away everyone in that group. Like chopping off a limb that has become too infected to be saved. Forgiveness gives the possibility that you can surgically deal with the tumors and reduce the spread of the suffering. Forgive those who harmed you and choose not to perpetuate it further on those you influence.
Very well put. I think you understand where this goes. the other thing that concerns me is epigenetics. permanent change to the humans psyche after a thousand generations. It cannot be good.
Many excellent points here, John. I would point out, however, that routine infant circumcision is still very common and is the “norm” in America to this day. I don’t have the latest figures, but it’s probably well over 90% in middle America, and still well over half along the West Coast, as it’s long been integrated into the medicalized hospital birthing process.
To your conjecture about men seeking satisfaction that cannot be quenched, there have been studies that show that circumcised men seek other forms of sexual activity than straight vaginal intercourse, including rough sex and other forms of stimulation.
Probably unrelated, but circumcision has become almost universal in South Korea since the post-war U.S. occupation. What a cultural study that could make!
There is so much to ponder and explore about this subject that it could take a series of intensive studies or even a book to address.
Interesting conclusion to make the link between the Tanakh and Mein Kampf. Obviously, Nazism and Judaism have one important thing in common: an exaggerated, collective sense of supremacy (often called Malthusianism nowadays). Hitler's biggest mistake, besides Russia, was certainly to underestimate the profoundness of the Jewish problem, which is, in fine, the problem of the whole human race.
I'm glad to hear you talking about circumcision, Laurent. On my blog, there's a woman named Denise Ward who's been bringing it up and citing some of the same quotes that you do. She sees it as the single act that turns sons against their mothers, breaking the trust forever as you say. The entire edifice of patriarchy follows, a society that serves the ejaculations of men with children as an inconvenient byproduct, in my words.
However, all of the voices of the Bible should be quoted as literary characters in a narrative, even if they're named for historical figures. The words put into their mouths, unless found on a stone tablet or some other unalterable format, are a narrative written by one or more authors. But Yahweh, in particular, can't be quoted and attributed without an implicit assumption that, yes, there is a sociopathic supremacist God who spoke. So instead, we should say, "The [sociopathic supremacist] scripters of the Torah present Yahweh as saying, 'the son who opens the womb shall be dedicated to me," in other words, sacrificed.
What is the repetitive theme of the Torah? A later-born son claiming the right of the inheritance over the firstborn. Again and again and again and again. It's not that the word king (molek) meant Yahweh, it's that the word Yahweh meant the king. Specifically the Heka Khasut who had usurped rule over Egypt, a story paralleled in Joseph whose brothers 'sold him into slavery in Egypt'. He then uses terrorism and taxation to enslave the Egyptians, according to the narrator: https://thirdparadigm.substack.com/p/hebrews-in-egypt-slaves-or-masters?
In revenge for the oldest son getting the inheritance to rule in Syria or Canaan, and therefore 'Joseph' having to usurp his own rule over Egypt, did he order all firstborn sons to be put to death, as a sacrifice to him? He's clearly striking back when Mizraim, the same word for Egypt and siege, is the son of Ham to be slaves to his cousins the Shemites in perpetuity.
I had started that episode to respond to yours on the Kenites and Cain, but found so much material on the Habiru in Egypt, I didn't get to it. I'll be continuing. Thanks for your good information.
Thanks. It's understood. I quote Yahweh as a character in a narrative that I don't take seriously, but that Jews take seriously, and that's the problem. I mean the problem is not Yahweh, but the fact that Jews think it is the real God. It's always implicit in what I write. Good point about Joseph.
And yes, I definitely know that you don't think of Yahweh as real. And perhaps the reminder was to myself. It's hard to break the habit of readers seeing Biblical characters as if they're historical figures. So I'm trying to train myself to keep referring to the author's intent rather than the literary character in whose mouth they've put their words. No matter how clear I am about this, it's trying to reverse 2000+ yrs of propaganda, so I err on the side of being boringly repetitious.
Hi Tereza, I saw that, thanks. So many people can't help thinking I'm talking about God when I mock Yahweh. We need to keep hammering that Yahweh IS a mockery of God, ultimately everyone will get it and be freed from the matrix.
This is tremendous insight. I dont know if the trauma from circumcision can be healed, but this could potentially provide insight into so much of the problems of western society.
It made me wonder if this is what gave power to religious authorities even christian, since these traumatized men seek succor not from their mother but from some religious institution after their maternal bond has been severed. They become zealous for their religion in the hope that they will receive the comfort that they were denied on that day.
Uncircumcised males might hate women far less and do not seek for comfort from such a trauma and I wonder if they are more prevalent in non religious behavior.
Epigenetics tend to be used as a modern version of Lysenkoism. They don't actually carry over to the next generation and intergenerational trauma is nonsense and excuse for terrible genetics, terrible parenting and terrible culture. But trauma in the life of the individual himself? That may very well have an effect on epigenetics.
Am I inflating epigenetic processes? It's quite possible, and I'll take your objection into account. Perhaps I shouldn't have put the term in the title. Let's put it this way, then: eighth-day circumcision (without anesthesia) is a trauma that affects the early emotional (and possibly endocrine) development, causing among Jews a shared psychological make-up with a tendency to personality disorders. That goes a long way to explaining Jewishness. But still, I do think that the very fact that what is specifically attacked in the newborn is the genitals must have very profound effects. It's not like if they branded a star of David on their forehead with a red-hot iron. It's worse. Food for thought anyway. This is an important debate. And the debate shouldn't be about circumcision in general: islamic circumcision is traditionally done on teens, and takes the form of an initiation ritual: the spirit and the effects are totally different. Interestingly, I am told that, under Jewish influence, many muslims now get their boys circumcised in the first month.
I was agreeing with you. I mean, I don't know if that's the case but it's certainly a possibility that childhood trauma would alter epigenetics which in turn alters genetic expression throughout rest of his life. I'm just pointing out that there's a myth that this can somehow directly get transferred to the next generation, it can't.
The main purpose of epigenetics is actually differentiating genetic expression of cells in different parts of the body, i.e. you don't want your neurons to behave like your liver cells, you need them to specialize for their functions.
also, i read several studies about the percentage of rapists in prison. a very high percentage were circumcised, even though the general population of the country was very uncircumcised.
The more devout Jews allow the mohul to suck the little guy's bleeding member transferring natural maternal care/solace to a male religious authority figure.
WIKI : The traditional method of performing metzitzah b'peh (Hebrew: מְצִיצָה בְּפֶה, abbreviated as MBP[68])—or oral suction—has become controversial. The process has the mohel place his mouth directly on the infant's genital wound to draw blood away from the cut. Many circumcision ceremonies no longer use metzitzah b'peh, but Haredi Jews continue to perform it, while traditional Karaites and Beta Israel never practiced it. The practice poses a serious risk of spreading herpes to the infant. Proponents maintain that there is no conclusive evidence that links herpes to Metzitza, and that attempts to limit this practice infringe on religious freedom
You may find the concept of "basic trust" interesting, if you haven't come across it. It just a term the psychological community has coined to describe an underlying feeling of safety one has regarding their existence in the world.
basic trust psychology definition https://millerspubnanaimo.ca/zerosixai/basic-trust-psychology-definition
Good point. My summary: Basic trust is the fundamental sense of security and confidence that an individual develops during the first year of his life. It is the bedrock of his future psychological development, as psychologist Erik Erikson theorized it, and it depends primarily on the sense of being protected and cared for by the parents. Failure to develop this basic trust can lead to chronic anxiety, depression, and personality disorders. (Do we really need Erikson to tell us that?) Children enduring the excruciating pain of circumcision (without anesthesia) will surely react differently, but can there be any doubt that many will have their basic trust permanently damaged?
Two entertaining Bible stories about circumcision:
1Samuel 18: David wanted to marry Saul’s daughter. Saul asked, as bride token, one hundred Philistines' foreskins. David went out and slaughtered two hundred Philistines and brought back their foreskins to Saul. The story does not say if Saul fried them like onion rings or wore them as a necklace.
Genesis 34: Hamor, the king of the Canaanite city of Shechem, once proposed to Jacob to intermarry with his tribe: “give us your daughters and take our daughters for yourselves.” Jacob’s sons feigned to agree on the condition that “you become like us by circumcising all your males.” Hamor consented and convinced all his male subjects to be circumcised. Three days later, “when the men were still in pain,” Jacob’s sons attacked the town, “slaughtered all the males,” and “took all their children and wives captive and looted everything to be found in the houses”.
Halleluiah!
i have always thought this. it must cause subconscious rage at the mother, at the very least, at women, at society. Attachment cannot work correctly after that. It just can't.
Im curious as to whether or not this creates a kind of permanent depression on a man that cannot be healed. I wonder how prevalent circumcised gentiles are in christian churches. I think in America circumcision stopped being widespread maybe a few decades ago and that could be a factor in the reduced attendance of these churches?
What Im getting at is that if this is such a trauma that it persists into adulthood, it would not be surprising to find circumcised men unable to find fulfillment in life seeking religious answers to a question that cannot be answered. Leading to the language that Bono uses “I still haven’t found what Im looking for”. Its a trauma that exists deep within the subconscious that manifests as this “god shaped hole”. Of course that wouldn’t explain women seeking religious institutions.
Im wondering what kind of impact that makes on a societal whole, that all these men have this deep subconscious trauma which happened before they even developed language with which to process it. That’s why nothing cures the pain of someone like that I imagine. Who knows I could be reaching.
I think psychopaths try to increase chaos and suffering for this reason. Well adjusted people will not be manipulated as easily, so they try to maximize as much suffering as they can to perpetuate their power. A bunch of women hating circumcised dudes traumatize the women, they then traumatize young men, you know its this cancer that keeps on giving.
That is probably why forgiveness becomes such a powerful mechanism for the possibility of healing. At a certain point if you seek revenge on enough people you just traumatize more people and the only fix is to wipe away everyone in that group. Like chopping off a limb that has become too infected to be saved. Forgiveness gives the possibility that you can surgically deal with the tumors and reduce the spread of the suffering. Forgive those who harmed you and choose not to perpetuate it further on those you influence.
Very well put. I think you understand where this goes. the other thing that concerns me is epigenetics. permanent change to the humans psyche after a thousand generations. It cannot be good.
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the most violent societies and countries circumcise their males.
Many excellent points here, John. I would point out, however, that routine infant circumcision is still very common and is the “norm” in America to this day. I don’t have the latest figures, but it’s probably well over 90% in middle America, and still well over half along the West Coast, as it’s long been integrated into the medicalized hospital birthing process.
To your conjecture about men seeking satisfaction that cannot be quenched, there have been studies that show that circumcised men seek other forms of sexual activity than straight vaginal intercourse, including rough sex and other forms of stimulation.
Probably unrelated, but circumcision has become almost universal in South Korea since the post-war U.S. occupation. What a cultural study that could make!
There is so much to ponder and explore about this subject that it could take a series of intensive studies or even a book to address.
this procedure is done for not medical reason, but religious ones. No one will get funding to do that research.
Yeah it would be very difficult to put a finger on it. I think alot of people wouldn’t even want to believe that it impacts their lives
Let alone the lives of their precious perfect child.
Interesting conclusion to make the link between the Tanakh and Mein Kampf. Obviously, Nazism and Judaism have one important thing in common: an exaggerated, collective sense of supremacy (often called Malthusianism nowadays). Hitler's biggest mistake, besides Russia, was certainly to underestimate the profoundness of the Jewish problem, which is, in fine, the problem of the whole human race.
I'm glad to hear you talking about circumcision, Laurent. On my blog, there's a woman named Denise Ward who's been bringing it up and citing some of the same quotes that you do. She sees it as the single act that turns sons against their mothers, breaking the trust forever as you say. The entire edifice of patriarchy follows, a society that serves the ejaculations of men with children as an inconvenient byproduct, in my words.
However, all of the voices of the Bible should be quoted as literary characters in a narrative, even if they're named for historical figures. The words put into their mouths, unless found on a stone tablet or some other unalterable format, are a narrative written by one or more authors. But Yahweh, in particular, can't be quoted and attributed without an implicit assumption that, yes, there is a sociopathic supremacist God who spoke. So instead, we should say, "The [sociopathic supremacist] scripters of the Torah present Yahweh as saying, 'the son who opens the womb shall be dedicated to me," in other words, sacrificed.
What is the repetitive theme of the Torah? A later-born son claiming the right of the inheritance over the firstborn. Again and again and again and again. It's not that the word king (molek) meant Yahweh, it's that the word Yahweh meant the king. Specifically the Heka Khasut who had usurped rule over Egypt, a story paralleled in Joseph whose brothers 'sold him into slavery in Egypt'. He then uses terrorism and taxation to enslave the Egyptians, according to the narrator: https://thirdparadigm.substack.com/p/hebrews-in-egypt-slaves-or-masters?
In revenge for the oldest son getting the inheritance to rule in Syria or Canaan, and therefore 'Joseph' having to usurp his own rule over Egypt, did he order all firstborn sons to be put to death, as a sacrifice to him? He's clearly striking back when Mizraim, the same word for Egypt and siege, is the son of Ham to be slaves to his cousins the Shemites in perpetuity.
I had started that episode to respond to yours on the Kenites and Cain, but found so much material on the Habiru in Egypt, I didn't get to it. I'll be continuing. Thanks for your good information.
Thanks. It's understood. I quote Yahweh as a character in a narrative that I don't take seriously, but that Jews take seriously, and that's the problem. I mean the problem is not Yahweh, but the fact that Jews think it is the real God. It's always implicit in what I write. Good point about Joseph.
Hello, Laurent. I did just post the episode that cites this article and your article on Cain and the Kenites: https://thirdparadigm.substack.com/p/maga-the-crocodile-demon. Thanks for all the good information.
And yes, I definitely know that you don't think of Yahweh as real. And perhaps the reminder was to myself. It's hard to break the habit of readers seeing Biblical characters as if they're historical figures. So I'm trying to train myself to keep referring to the author's intent rather than the literary character in whose mouth they've put their words. No matter how clear I am about this, it's trying to reverse 2000+ yrs of propaganda, so I err on the side of being boringly repetitious.
Hi Tereza, I saw that, thanks. So many people can't help thinking I'm talking about God when I mock Yahweh. We need to keep hammering that Yahweh IS a mockery of God, ultimately everyone will get it and be freed from the matrix.
This is tremendous insight. I dont know if the trauma from circumcision can be healed, but this could potentially provide insight into so much of the problems of western society.
It made me wonder if this is what gave power to religious authorities even christian, since these traumatized men seek succor not from their mother but from some religious institution after their maternal bond has been severed. They become zealous for their religion in the hope that they will receive the comfort that they were denied on that day.
Uncircumcised males might hate women far less and do not seek for comfort from such a trauma and I wonder if they are more prevalent in non religious behavior.
Damn, never seen it from that perspective... Insightful and shocking.
Epigenetics tend to be used as a modern version of Lysenkoism. They don't actually carry over to the next generation and intergenerational trauma is nonsense and excuse for terrible genetics, terrible parenting and terrible culture. But trauma in the life of the individual himself? That may very well have an effect on epigenetics.
Am I inflating epigenetic processes? It's quite possible, and I'll take your objection into account. Perhaps I shouldn't have put the term in the title. Let's put it this way, then: eighth-day circumcision (without anesthesia) is a trauma that affects the early emotional (and possibly endocrine) development, causing among Jews a shared psychological make-up with a tendency to personality disorders. That goes a long way to explaining Jewishness. But still, I do think that the very fact that what is specifically attacked in the newborn is the genitals must have very profound effects. It's not like if they branded a star of David on their forehead with a red-hot iron. It's worse. Food for thought anyway. This is an important debate. And the debate shouldn't be about circumcision in general: islamic circumcision is traditionally done on teens, and takes the form of an initiation ritual: the spirit and the effects are totally different. Interestingly, I am told that, under Jewish influence, many muslims now get their boys circumcised in the first month.
I was agreeing with you. I mean, I don't know if that's the case but it's certainly a possibility that childhood trauma would alter epigenetics which in turn alters genetic expression throughout rest of his life. I'm just pointing out that there's a myth that this can somehow directly get transferred to the next generation, it can't.
The main purpose of epigenetics is actually differentiating genetic expression of cells in different parts of the body, i.e. you don't want your neurons to behave like your liver cells, you need them to specialize for their functions.
also, i read several studies about the percentage of rapists in prison. a very high percentage were circumcised, even though the general population of the country was very uncircumcised.